Appeal Hearing Held on Proposed Boxing Day Question

[sulley's mom]

I guess that is the difference   I don't see the city as being deceptive or underhanded, just ignorant.  I doubt they can see where that questioning is opening them up to possible challenge later on..that is more the issue for me personally.  I want the wording clear so that it at least stands a change of being over, and if not over, at least everyone will shut up about it for a few years....I can see the counsel wording being challenged if it is kept.

[Alan Smith]

IMHO,  the question could be clearer if there was a reference to leaving the stores open or closed up to the individual retailers. That is clear, concise, and requires a yes or no answer just like the legislation states.

The way the question reads is forcing most retailers to open and the NRPA question forces most retailers to close.  That's not clear enough!

Oscar:  The jewellery guy made his choice to close, but, why is he, being part of the NRPA, want most retailers to close?  My intent in my previous post was not saying that stores can choose their hours.  The retailers should have the choice to either open or stay closed as the jewellery guy did.  The stores can set their own hours. 

Just my opinion on the matter.

If the jewellery guy jumped off the bridge, do we all have to follow?

[oscar]

Alan,
Do you actually read anything that the NRPA wrote? Their argument from what I gather focuses around the FACT there is a current bylaw in place that currently states that on Dec 26 there is a CIVIC holiday and under the retail sales holiday act certain stores (and they are all listed out for you to see) are exempt from the closings on that holiday..ie gas stations , pharmacies etc...(go look it up)
The NRPA position  is pretty clear to me they are attempting to fix what council has done and clarify WHAT we will vote on...and because of them what I also see is an un clear Ballot question.
The way it is being asked retail establishments (stores)  is every place that sells retail items...
ok fine...yes everybody open. What if I and a majority say no? The way it is written EVERYBODY will be closed..right? See the problem. I do.

The current by-law closing stores on Dec 26 is key to the question but seems to be relegated to the fine print only speaking to the action after the vote. This is where they zing you as well...if a majority of voters say yes then current bylaw will be repealed..most likely to be replaced with a new one...that has yet to be written even though we have no idea as to what it will contain..by a council that hasn't been elected yet...  and if the majority says no then we have accepted the current by-law and nothing will change.
Ok they reffered to the by law twice in the fine print and the possible outcomes of the vote
 BUT WHERE THE HELL WAS THAT IN THE QUESTION!!!!!WHAT AM I VOTING ON???
Jewelry guy is advocating for clear defined choice... wanting a clear defined question... guess what ....SO DO I...and my friend so do you!
Oscar G.

[Alan Smith]

oscar:  I have read what the NRPA wrote and that is why I referred to most retailers, not all retailers.  I know several are classed as essential services.  Wasn't the NRPA fighting for the rights of employees to spend 2 days with their families over Christmas?  This is a right that is already covered under the Employment Standards Act administered by the Ministry of Labour.

It appears that possibly the Retail Sales Holiday Act and the Employment Standards Act are condlicting on the topic of employee rights.  Some employees had concerns over reprisals from employers which is also covered in the ESA.

I still maintain that both questions are not clear enough and refer to the first paragraph of my post on February 19, 2010 at 10:21 pm.

However, we both agree that the NRPA question and the City proposed question, are equally unclear with the focus on the words open (City) closed (NRPA).  I also am aware of the ramifications regarding the outcomes of both the yes and no vote.

Question:  Are you in favour of repealing the current bylaw and leave the retailers to decide for themselves whether to open or  close on Decembert 26, Boxing Day?  

Clear, concise, neutral, and can be answered  yes or no!  Always a pleasure conversing with you, Oscar

[sulley's mom]

I like that one.

[oscar]

Question:  Are you in favour of repealing the current bylaw and leave the retailers decide for themselves whether to open or be closed on Decembert 26, Boxing Day?  

Great question but a bit un clear. Since the bylaw suports a civic holiday for the entire community.. how does "and leave the retailers decide for themselves whether to open or be closed on December 26, Boxing Day? " make a clear answer?  
If the bylaw is repealed then stores could open...right?
So why add something to the question that really has ZERO bearing to the decision to be made by the voters.
Keep or repeal the current bylaw....yes or no ? That is the question!! Civic holiday or no civic holiday dec 26...yes or no? All other concerns are window dressing...smoke...mirrors.
Pretty simple to me. I just see the NRPA wanting a question dealing with what is and not with what's not. They are putting on the line the very thing they did in 2007.Either way elections canada will come back with their ruling and then we'll see. Have a great day Alan!

Oscar G.

[Alan Smith]

In the beginning, why was it necessary to impose a bylaw to make December 26 (Boxing Day) a Civic Holiday when it is already a Public Holiday according to the ESA?  Google, Employment Standards Act for Ontario and view the list of Public Holidays and the rights of retail workers.

Both Nationwide and Ontario wide regard Boxing Day as a Public Holiday, but the Ontario Retail Business Holiday Act does not.  I believe the content of the latter is superseded by the first two.

This fact reinforces my belief that Council had no business entertaining this topic, especially since being a border City.

Oscar, you got it:  the stores could open" meaning they are not forced to open or close, thus, leaving the decision to the individual retailers.  I am not sure how current retail stores would be affected as related to Retailer contracts with Malls.

Great sunny Sunday, Enjoy

[oscar]

Alan,

"This fact reinforces my belief that Council had no business entertaining this topic, especially since being a border City."
Being a border city is irrelevant but your right council opened up this can of worms...lol

"Oscar, you got it:  the stores could open" meaning they are not forced to open or close, thus, leaving the decision to the individual retailers.  I am not sure how current retail stores would be affected as related to Retailer contracts with Malls."More worms!..lol
Simply eliminate the bylaw supporting a civic holiday...problem is the way they wrote their question to put to the voters ...they are just not asking what needs to be asked. It's really not clear cut. What exactly are they asking me? Give it to me straight ...I can take it!!
Oscar G.

[Alan Smith]

Oscar G.:  After the "fiasco" Council meeting chaired by Councillor Grandinetti, I, personally am at my wits end.  I cannot tell you what they are asking, but, to me they are only asking the voters if they want stores to open on December 26 (Boxing Day)

IMHO,  the City's question nor the NRPA's question, although qualify to require only a yes or no answer, but, are quite unclear as to the spirit of the required question being clear, concise, and neutral.

I think we can let this go now Oscar.  If our discussion was a boxing match, I'd call it a draw.

Enjoy the game, Canada vs. USA 

[oscar]

Allan,
I see on the other site that you have placed your name to run in ward 4...who do you think you have the best chance of unseating?
Oscar G.

[Alan Smith]

Oscar G.:  By putting my name forth, first, in the Ward shows my interest in the position.  The voters of Ward 4 will dictate who will represent them to their liking and on their behalf.

[oscar]

Wow,
You souund like a politician already!!
I wish you good luck in your run.
Oscar G.

[Ms. Belsito (BANNED)]

I wonder how long the game by all who wanted to have unnecessary controlling measures over businesses is going to go on for as it relates to this issue.

 

[oscar]

Some will keep their seats and some will not....when we vote!
Then we'll know!
Oscar G.

[Ms. Belsito (BANNED)]

quote author_OscarG.
Some will keep their seats and some will not....when we vote!
Then we'll know!
Oscar G.

By Ms. Belsito

Would you like to let me know whether what is in the quote involves answering me?